Ralph Nader critical of Obama for trying to 'talk white'

Caroaber:

"Talking white" is not racist tinge in this context. Nader is accusing Obama of supporting the good old white boy network that props up corporate fascism, with the new face of an African American, that could have been female, the new faces of imperialism, the new servile class elites, using race opportunistically to avoid class issues.

I respectfully disagree, Eric. It seems Nader is throwing a tantrum because Sen. Obama doesn't fit into the Jesse Jackson paradigm. I don't wanna hear rhymes and couplets; I want real policy change.

Sen. Obam is not Gus Hall. He wants to change things from within the system.

Nader's comment is the same criticism as saying that black students that get good grades are "acting white" as if being a good orator or excelling in school are primarily white people's traits. It's an insult to all blacks.

The much anticipated Nader-Eric circle-jerk has begun!!!

Popcorn!!!...get your fresh hot Popcorn!!!!!

Caroaber:

I do not expect you to always agree, but I did bring up valid points regarding social ideology, which you did not address and their critiques. Gus Hall is a Stalinist, and I have often pointed out that the failures of Stalinism are parallel failures of class forces that both betrayed democracy, and strangled national revolutions, nationally, through the dominance of Global corporate forces. Of course in both cases, the class elites represent the deformed, right wing displaced ideological forces, class ideologues that are servile and criminal to Capital and Empire. In the latter case, all national revolutions, both democratic and socialist failed, and collapsed into parallel deformed bureaucratic apparatchiks, class enablers, just like their mirror image of class elites. Stalinism is not "Communism", and has as little to do with Marxism, the social left, but has everything to do with class forces and exploitation. "Socialism in one country" exploited millions of peasants, in even more brutal ways, trying to do what took capitalism a couple of centuries, into a ten year program of extreme class-state exploitation.

Trotsky and Lenin were opposed to Stalinism, and could see by the 1920's that the Bolshevik revolution, Russian revolution could not succeed, in national terms, but only through international revolutionary movements, which did not take place, especially in Germany, which instead moved towards a more corporate fascist system of Capitalism.
Thus, historically, all democratic revolutions, and socialist revolutions were corrupted, co-opted by class forces, still dominant since class history, a class mechanism that still is in place since Patriarchy.

Now on to Obama. Obama has lurched rightward, and cannot even be considered a liberal, having embraced the neocon, zionist, liberal warhawk class naitonalist positions of American Empire. He has surrounded himself with war criminals, and complicit appeasers.
If all class Presidential candidates are saying the same thing, where it really counts, promoting imperial, fascist and zionist policies, class nationalist policies, then they are part of the same problem that Bush and republicans are, as the Supreme Court has already smacked both the White Hous and Congress for being complicit fascist enablers, class enablers, in shredding the Constiutition, Bill of Rights they were sworn to uhpold, but failed to do. Withy friends like these, why does it matter that McCain gets elected, if both of them follow corporate and imperial policies and agree with aggression against Iran?????

Though I never voted for Nader (and have never considered it), I had some respect for his tenacity and his reputation for being an advocate for the people... his embarrassingly massive ego is a big turnoff, as is this newfound discovery of his latent racist attitude -- that Nader can only parrot the very same rhetoric he's been spouting about all politicians other than himself while deeming himself qualified to determine whether Obama is black enough or not, and not critique Obama on real issues indicates that Nader has nothing of substance to work with.

Nader has just proven himself to be small man with an ego too big for him to even manage properly.

I had some respect for his tenacity

I'd have respect for that too, if he had any. A tenacious fighter for his causes would be constantly involved building a movement to achieve his goals, not popping up to attention whore every presidential cycle. He doesn't seem to give a hoot when the national spotlight isn't there to grab, which makes him little more than a self serving demagogue.

Once again. anybody disagreeing with Obama is a racist. The liberals really need to get a new mantra.

Signed,
The invisible (on Newsvine) Conservative

I don't think Ralph Nader is a racist. I think his comments promotes racist ideas and attitudes, though, and I think they would have been better left unsaid. I don't see what value him articulating this idea has brought to the discussion.

Superman: Those, that are not willing to address issues, are in fact creating their own spam or creating their own perceived racism, that are outcomes of their own failure to sort things out.

Superman: Those, that are not willing to address issues, are in fact creating their own spam or creating their own perceived racism, that are outcomes of their own failure to sort things out.

What are you talking about? Seriously. What does that have to do with my comment? How does your comment even make any sense?

Ralph Nader is not a racist in my opinion, but his comment will incite racism from other people, and already has in this thread. You can scroll up or down to see it.

Eric, the majority of your critiques are premature, to say the least. The presumptive nominee must first earn the right to implement some of the changes you speak of. That can only occur if he is elected. Your attacks on him do not help that effort.

Your concern about his recent rhetoric (he has not embraced the "neocon" position; support of an American ally, Israel, is not the same thing as being Zionist) is a kneejerk reaction to his pragmatism. All candidates make promises, but they don't all deliver. You seem unwilling to wait and see what Sen. Obama will bring to the table.

If Gus Hall called himself a Stalinist and never corrected that, then eternal shame on him. Same goes for Paul Robeson. Ten million dead Ukrainians is something that can never be accepted.

Eric:

neocon, zionist, liberal warhawk class naitonalist positions of American Empire.

Do you ever run out of adjectives?

Do you ever run out of adjectives?

No. He recycles.

Carobaer: There is a historical presumption from all class, deformed civil societies, namely its class mechanism, in place since Patriarchy, its deformed, servile middle layers, beginning with the artisans and priests, who only had to look at the majority of slaves below them to see what would happen if the Pharoah, corpotate thug, oligarchy, imperial plutocracy did not go along. Ask Bush what he did to break the arms of countries who would not go along with the illegal aggression. These corrupt class relations hold true for all of our class history, along with its class dominance, old and new forces, and their deformed servile elites. There is a reason I use these code words, to link all the disassociated empirical issues to one generic theory of class corruption. Failure to address this fundamental failure, "presumption" allows presumptive wars of imperialism, co-opted middle class professionals, complicit war criminals like Obama, whose job it is to uphold the Constitution, and not the neocons, liberal warhawk and Zionist class nationalist ideologies.

Nader is super white, who is he to criticize?

Kingmarty:

Go back and see the video. He is not talking about race in race terms, he is talking about opportunistic class appeasers who use race in class terms. Nader could care less about being white or black or being Lebanese, which his parents come from, he is talking about class opportunists, who use race to hide behind corporate, imperial failures.

Eric, how do you know what he meant when he said that? He never made any clarification to that extent, and until he does, I'm taking his words at face value. Knowing Nader and his insatiable ego and his desire to define himself as the only "good guy" alive, he probably knew exactly what he was saying. And if he didn't, I wouldn't want someone so callous and culturally unaware as to toss around verbiage as he has without considering the potential impact.

Himself:

One has to know some arguments regarding social goals, to know they are not "egomaniacal" or "racist", which is why he is looking at this failure here, as typical, to put context, and his progam, into the find of focus it deserves. Liberals are too lazy to do social analysis, and thus the flippant remarks.

Eric, the fact that Nader and yourself believe this only reveals how uninformed you are in regard to Obama... when someone with the credentials that Obama has earned (president of the Harvard law Review, as an example) forgoes working in a practice that will make him rich to practice constitutional law for a pittance, and chooses to focus his life on community organizing, it is beneath ignorant to accuse anyone of being "lazy on social analysis," especially "liberals"; the entire "liberal" conversation is rooted in social progress -- maybe you meant to say "Democrats," in which case, you need to start thinking more freely and not constrain yourself with the ideological, anarchistic rhetoric and lingo you love to cut and paste into every post you manufacture.

Nader is trying to revive his glory days which have long past. He's made himself irrelevant and ineffective by refusing to deal with nuance, and instead painting everything in broad antagonistic strokes and refusing to hear anyone else's ideas on those topics he claims to be fighting for. He is a lot like George W. Bush in that regard; anything that doesn't strictly fit what he wants to hear, he won't consider; unwilling to compromise on anything, even if it means he gets to further his agenda more than he would otherwise.

If Nader were truly serious about changing the country in the ways that he claims, we would be hearing about his good deeds all of the time, and not just seeing him pop his head out of his rabbit hole every four years. If he were serious about the social well being of those who are in need, I would have seen or heard more of him, because I am on the frontlines in that struggle.

You are in no position to judge people on their supposed blind loyalty to a candidate; You have just as much of a complex about Nader as the Obama followers you tend to belittle.

Nader could care less about being white or black or being Lebanese, which his parents come from, he is talking about class opportunists, who use race to hide behind corporate, imperial failures.

If that were true why is he in fact emphasing the color of Obama's skin?

"There's only one thing different about Barack Obama when it comes to being a Democratic presidential candidate. He's half African-American," Nader said

Why even talk about white guilt and white talk, if thats not what he means?

If he doesnt care, then its odd that he goes out of his way to place it front and center.

Nader continues to be a bigger and bigger joke each time he runs.

AphidAcid:

If Obama's right wing posturing, military appeasement to Israel's class nationalism, or to American Empire is "sense", then why don't we just vote for McCain who has even more such illiberal "sense", Mrl BOMB, BOMB, BOMB, BOMBA IRAN, a policiy that both democrats and republicans endorse, notice the recent resolution of warmongering arrogance voted by both class parties, almost all democrats, to the AIPAC bill demanding its support to repaeat the war crimes of Iraq, for the war crimes of Iran.

Hey Eric, AdipicAcid is not an insect... do you have some kind of dysfunction that doesn't allow you to spell people's names right when you don't respect them?

It's childish and old.

Heh. No worries Scott. I don't see anything he posts. For a time my ignore list was mostly filled with valueless posters from the rightward end of the spectrum, so Eric provides useful balance to that august group.

Ddog:

Nader does not base his policies on "jealousy" but on the corruption of both worthless imperial parties. It is not about him, it is about policies, which most liberals here cannot, will not counter, preferring to shut their eyes on the causes of this class corruption of a monopoly of its win win situation for the elites, which do nothing for working and middle classes.

Whites in my opinion are foolish to vote for Obama; a guy who totally lacks experiences and falsely plays up hope and change but never delivers.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it's naive to suggest that there aren't Caucasian Americans who will vote for the man because of his policies. Just as it would be naive for me to suggest that there aren't African Americans that will vote for McCain because of his policies. Thankfully, I wouldn't make such a claim.

Arcanebliss most Obama supporters want the black person for the job. However, I want the best person for the job.

Arcanebliss speaking of Obama's policies; they mean absolutely nothing. There's not one law books, that can make any politician carry out on their words to voters. This is why, we so many liars and crooks run for elected office.

Therefore, voting for Obama because of his policies is absolutely silly! Since there is no law to hold Obama to any his promises... all I can do is judge Obama on is what he has accomplished. So far Obama's record indicates, that arrogant ego of his makes him good at self-promotion; however he sucks thoroughly when it comes to getting any real reform through government.

Arcanebliss also who are you trying to fool, to suggest that blacks are going to seriously consider voting for John McCain? They are such a racist bunch! We already know in June, that in November 95% of African Americans will be voting for Obama and they tend to vote habitually for Democrats anyway, so as far as I'm concerned they are insignificant voting block.

If I were a Democrat or Republican running for office, I wouldn't waste a dime of my money or spend one minute courting the black vote in this country. From birth; African Americans should be stamped or branded with the word "Democrat" on their foreheads.

lionred-330988
Arcanebliss most Obama supporters want the black person for the job. However, I want the best person for the job.

Nobody can approve or disprove that statement. It's simply your opinion and not an informed one as there is no evidence whether "most Obama supporters" simply want "the black person" for the job or not.

Arcanebliss speaking of Obama's policies; they mean absolutely nothing. There's not one law books, that can make any politician carry out on their words to voters. This is why, we so many liars and crooks run for elected office.

Obama's policies mean a lot - as the policies of many presidents in the past have meant a lot as well. Simply because there are bad apples in the bunch doesn't mean that the policies of presidents are moot point. A president and his administration can have a profound affect on a country, and there is plenty of current evidence to reflect that.

Arcanebliss also who are you trying to fool, to suggest that blacks are going to seriously consider voting for John McCain? They are such a racist bunch! We already know in June, that in November 95% of African Americans will be voting for Obama and they tend to vote habitually for Democrats anyway, so as far as I'm concerned they are insignificant voting block.

Simply because a majority of African Americans vote Democrat most presidential elections doesn't mean that McCain doesn't have African American supporters. There's a reason why African Americans typically don't support the Republican party, and it isn't always just a matter of that African Americans are racist.

Blacks only support Democrats, because the Democrats are always giving them loads of free goodies: like free food, free housing, free energy assistance and free healthcare and free education. The DNC even gave Obama free delegates from Michigan, even though he voluntarily took his name of the Michigan ballot! When Obama is President, I'm sure he's going to try to give blacks even more free money from slavery reparation!

You apparently paid no mind to the links I supplied that state otherwise.

lionred:

I agree with you, the willingly closed minded class ideologies, that base everything on exclusion, double standards, takes delusions of mass proportions. Here is what Carlin the stand up comedian said on Ron Paul site, the Website of the day:Who Owns You
(Warning some profane words) but mostly the demise of both liberal-conservative view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktIECyzf4YM&feature=related

When are we going to hear just HOW Obama is going to give us all this change?

I've heard nothing but empty rhetoric so far. Where are his great new ideas and how is he going to pay for all of them?

Hating Obama: where the radical Left and the far-Right meet.

Scott Issacs:

I don't hate Obama, in fact I quiet often defend him when the scurilous, superficial right wing slivers of know nothing racism attacks Obama for reasons that are shallow, when the same could be said of these class republican ideologists.

However, I also criticize, not hate, that his so childish, the corrupt and complicit war criminals, the democratic party and Obama himself on fundamental failures, that neither side addresses.

Eric:
I-S-A-A-C-S

To say that Obama is no different from McCain, which is what you've said over and over again, is to ignore simple facts about both candidates. Just because neither of them will do what you want them to from the Oval Office does not mean that there is no difference between them.

Scott Isaacs: Sorry, about the misspelling. I did not say there were no differences, only slivers of differences, which is why the liberal and conservative arguments are for the most part small and superficial. I said on foreign policies, and economics, they fundamentally aggree, and are co war criminals, neo con, neo liberal corporate ideological thugs, that do nothing for most middle and working classes.

No liberal or conservative has yet to answer my question, now posed dozens of times, what will the American Enterprise neocons, and Brookiings instiutute neo liberals say when both of them support an illegal war agianst Iran, democrats, like they did in Iraq, will support this war crime, including Obama, at a time that most people want this lunacy to end.

You still have not addressed that Pelosi already gave Bush the green light to attack Iran, a year ago, before the Intelligence document came out and embarrassed all class appeasers, class imperialists. that said Iran has no nuclear weapons and is no threat. Then you have not addressed that the democrats supported the Lieberman Kyle resolution, the Zionist, AIPAC, Israeli warmongering resolution, and just now, once again passed another resolution passed by the democrats to illegally carry on an economic and military embargo, just like Iraq, repeatin the same war crimes. Now explain to me why we should have any faith in this history of massive failures by liberals capitulating to the brown shirted Republican Nazis???

Rob:

What sense would that be? Is it the bloody sense of liberals and conservatives, lying to us, and warmongering us into illegal wars???? His sense does not apologize, appease, or gives retoractive immunity to Corporate fascists that spy on us, for its criminal class system.

Maybe Nader should have said "There's nothing different about Obama" instead of "The only thing different about him is he's half-black." (paraphrase) Why would race even matter? Aren't people that deconstruct class supposed to be blind to race?

I'm still listening; I think Nader's white guilt comment made a lot of sense! Also Obama worshippers, quite the way to promote Democracy: tell people to shut up who disagree with you!

Personally, I prefer our democracy over Obama!

jdoyle
Its too bad Nader's ego has negated so much of the good he has done over the years.
Shut up Ralph, people aren't listening to you any more.

Have you read these comments yet? They're a real hoot.
Nader invokes Obama's race to criticize him.

Jdoyle:

Too bad that the ego of liberals and conservatives has translated into the rot and bloody history of our Empire. Nader has not appeased this crime, Obama and mostly everyone else in the two party system are complicit war criminals.

I think Nader's white guilt comment made a lot of sense!

This is just Nader's self-serving attempt to sabotage yet another election that he knows he will never win. If he can get people to take the "race bait," he can celebrate at least one small victory. Everyone but Obama has made this election about race... and Nader has made himself look like a fool for bringing it up.

the way to promote Democracy: tell people to shut up who disagree with you!

I said that for his sake: he is losing any credibility he ever had.

Eric like I have said: a vote for Nader is a vote for McCain.
If you and others vote for Nader you will put McCain in office.
Do you want 4 more years of Bush? You are delusional if you think Obama and McCain are the same type of people.

Jdoyle:

We will get one more imperial war with Iran, whether it is Obama or McCain.

We will get one more imperial war with Iran, whether it is Obama or McCain.

No we will not under Obama, any more than we would have gone into Iraq under Gore

jdoyle:
Don't disturb Eric now, he's lost in his fantasy. ;-)

Jdoyle and Scott Issacs:

I would like to disturb your fantasy, delusions. The majority of democrats voted with Bush on the illegal war, and on the fascist Police legislation, just overturned by the Supreme Court. It seems the CCR and ACLU will once again have to go back to the Supreme Court to slap the democrats "fantasy" world, that they do not have to abide by the Constitution, Bill of rights, and can give permission to the Corporations for retroactive immunity to more impeachable offenses, that they themselves refust ot follow through.

I ask again, of the Obama supporters, and hopefully one of the anti war critics can force this question in front of Obama, what his position will be if the democratic party capitulates, like they did in Iraq, and supports both Israel and American aggression?? Will Obama capiulate as he has already done, quite a few times , the impeachable offenses, the war crimes or will he have a backbone?? Gore picked Lieberman or have you forgotten??? No I do not believe Gore is any more credible when it comes to a coherent social ideology.

So Eric you will vote for Nader?
If others follow your example then McCain will get into the White House:
How will we be better off?

Yes, he will capitulate to what you consider American and Israeli aggressiveness. He will lead it, in fact.

Jdoyle: I think Scott Isaacs has just confirmed my position, with pride and carelessness, why don't you ask him what is the difference between an Obama nuclear aggression in Iran, and a McCain nuclear aggression against Iran.??? Isaacs has said there is none, he endorses Obama's aggression against Iran. Actually a republican nuclear cruise missle, or a democratic nuclear cruise missle reduces itself to the same rot, war crime, of corporate fascism.

Eric I don't care what he thinks; I am asking you:
Do you think we will be better with McCain in the White House?

Ralph Nader only has credibility on one topic, in my opinion: Game 6 of the 2002 WCF.

I'm with you, Youare probablywrong, on Nader's sense, moral compass, political history, which the bloody democrats, as appeasers, failed "sense" has been responsible for.

starspray21:

Interesting you bring up Martin Luther King. King went after the bloody democrats on Vietnam, and like Nader, was smoking the same moral outrage, that millions of anti war protestors were also expressing. Some people learn from history....It seems liberals and conservatives never learn from history....they only repeat the same damn crimnal policies.

Rob see comment on Martin Luther King. King has more in common with Nader than Obama.

New Draper - with his help the GOP will make it three in a row. I wonder what state he is going to focus on. My guess is Wisconsin or Michigan.

NewDraper:

The corporate checks are in Obama's bank account. He just violated his promise towards real public funding, not corporate appeasement.

Andy:

Nadir had zero impact in 2004. He will have less in 2008. I blamez corporatations heha.

It is odd that Nadir is still stuck in that rhetoric (as are many people) that discusses segments of the population as if they are not part of our society as a whole. Nadir threw out that term "ghetto," too. He is a dinosaur when it comes to talking about these issues, and who is he to talk about them anyway.

a) Obama and McCain both talk about black people and "ghettoes," they do it when they are discussing Americans and the issues that affect us. Are nationalized healthcare, global warming, the economy, and energy issues that somehow only affect white people? Or middle class people?

b) Jesse Jackson is an activist. Barrack Obama is a Senator. Just because he has some African heritage in his family tree (enough that he is referred to as black) and he is a Senator does not mean that his job as a U.S. Senator is solely to address the needs specific to people with similar heritage.

Nadir's points are ludicrous and outdated no matter what his motives were in saying them. What a sad, sad spectacle.

Eric - the election process has all but been taken over by Corporate America. As I read what is being said on Newsvine, listening to CNN, Fox News, etc. I only hear the crap about who is to Black who is too white, who is to young and who is too old. We never get down to what will make this Country whole. The power of the masses is over and our Country is doomed to the same fate as the Neanderthal, Romans, Greeks and Mayan Civilizations. We do nothing but piss and moan in this country on how tough we have it. We can't fix the little things that used to make this Country great. We just keep beating each other up over our differences and yet proclaim "It's our diversity that makes us great" What a bunch of Bull.

Andy: Exactly what I am saying to these liberals and conservative class ideologues. The whole corporate, class process deforming democracy into a class dictatorship and policie state is not even noticed by them.

Denn034:

Does that retort explain anything? Obama has hurt himself by being part of the coalition of the bought off.

USA infidel:

I agree it is the best Nader link, as it exposes the know nothing pollitical process and know nothing ideological and historical content of two worthless parties unable to make arguments, except cheap retorts that do no require thinking. Just think if we take that position your cartoon reflects, there was a time when 90 percent of the know nothing majority supported Bush's fascist, illegal war against Iraq, and the 10 percent, the Anti war people, who now have that same 80 percent in their corner. It shows how being right at the wrong moment still means being right when the right correction took place six years later. Here is another example of too little too late.

http://www.counterpunch.org/worthington06252008.html

The democrats went along with this crime, Obama was silent on this issue, and has voted for the Patriot fascist acts.

Point well taken

The color divisions exist everywhere the English landed and set up shop. Here, Australia, South Africa, Canada, Jamaica...

The Dutch, Germans, Portuguese, Spanish and French also held imperialist and racist views. The problem is by no means just American.

I was talking about the endogamous Black/White color line. Endogamous meaning that we do marry and bred outside our race. Irrespective of that fact, it doesn't change the point I was making, does it?